Torie Wiksell: 0:14
Welcome to You're Not Crazy, a podcast for the adult children of parents with borderline and narcissistic personality disorders. I'm your host, Torie Wiksell, a therapist and coach with over a decade of experience in the mental health field. Now let's jump in. Hi guys, welcome back to this episode of You're Not Crazy. I am so excited to be back and talking with you guys this week.
Torie Wiksell: 0:41
This is just such a weird time of year, isn't it? Between Thanksgiving and the end of the year. It's just so bizarre for so many reasons, but I feel like my days are blurring together and my brain is somehow still functioning, but I also have to say my toddler's been in this weird sleep regression thing stage, so I think that's just complicating my overall sense of reality. So, anyways, that's a little snippet into my world, but today I thought we would talk about something that is not talked about enough at all, and that is this idea of the perfect mother when we're talking about narcissistic moms. There are so many clients coaching and therapy clients that I've worked with throughout the years who have narcissistic mothers, who have talked in length with me about how it's so hard for them to accept that reality, even though they know it to be true because they have this idea of their mom as a perfect mom, someone who always wanted to be a mother, whose sole purpose or primary passion in life was to be a mom, and this is something that is echoed by many narcissistic mothers. There is this very societally approved idea that women who are moms are selfless and wonderful and warm and loving and et cetera, et, etc. And narcissistic mothers tend to really gravitate towards playing this role, and it's not because they actually want to be good mothers, it's not because they actually are good mothers. It's because of the external benefits that this role provides for them in their life. The problem is, it can be so confusing and it can be so complicated when you grew up with a mom like this, because it is very hard to blend this idea of so many people outside of your immediate family, maybe even within your immediate family, validating and commenting on your mom being this perfect mother, trying to allow yourself the space to accept the reality of your childhood and your life with your mom, which involved a lot of emotional abuse and perhaps even physical abuse.
Torie Wiksell: 3:23
I think it's a really, really important topic to cover and I know I've talked a little bit about my own journey of initially believing that my mom had borderline personality disorder, coming into this realization that actually she much more likely had narcissistic personality disorder and my mom was definitely one of those perfect moms. Right Throughout my entire life there was this perceived image of my mom as the perfect mom, and so you know, speaking from my own personal perspective too, it was a lot harder for me to accept the reality that my mom actually meets criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. That that actually represents a lot of my relationship and experiences with her throughout my lifetime. It's been a challenge for me as well to really be able to hold space for this idea that to so many people she presented herself as this perfect mother, but to me there was so much dysfunction and abuse happening within our own relationship. So let's talk about really common ways in which narcissistic moms portray themselves to be the perfect mom, and when they are a narcissistic mom portraying themselves to be the perfect mom, what are some things that they do that enable them to protect that image? So the first thing I want to talk about is having this obsession on presenting themselves as the perfect mom, having this obsession around their appearance of being the perfect mom, really wanting others looking at your family to say, perhaps you have the perfect family. But even if that's not what other people say about your family, really making sure that they say that your mom is the perfect mom, that could be really getting really involved in your family. Really making sure that they say that your mom is the perfect mom. That could be really getting really involved in your activities in school, really making sure that you are doing the things that a perfect mom would have their child do, so that your mom can continue to have this image of the mom who handles it with ease. As I'm saying this, I just remember I'm not sure how many of you saw that Sherry Papini documentary, but that is literally what like was screaming at the top of my mind when I was watching that documentary was wow, that sounds like a narcissistic mom that they were describing this perfect mom. That sounds like a narcissistic mom that they were describing this perfect mom.
Torie Wiksell: 6:05
No one's the perfect mom. Good moms are not the perfect mom. Good moms have moments where they're great moms and they have moments that they're not proud of. Perfect does not exist. There is no one in this world who doesn't have emotions. There is no one who doesn't get frustrated at times with other people, including their children. To pretend that you are a perfect mother is a huge red flag. It's huge because there is no one who has the patience of a saint. There are people who shove down their feelings until they explode. There are people who, behind closed doors, are monsters and to the public, seem lovely and wonderful, but there are not people who are just so perfect that nothing ever upsets them, ever. And whenever I see a story about anyone like that, I think scary, scary, scary red flag. So with that being said, let's continue.
Torie Wiksell: 7:11
Other things that are really common with perfect moms who are actually narcissistic moms are things like conditional love, like being very transactional in when and how they will show affection and approval to their children. They are often willing to freely give and withdraw love in order to get their child, to manipulate their child to do what they want. Being really self-centered, prioritizing their own needs, desires and image over their kid's well-being. So this could be things like wanting to have their child excel in sports, even though their child is not interested in sports and instead is really interested in art or music. It could be really shifting the focus to what they want. Oftentimes people say things like, oh that parent's living vicariously through their child. That is kind of what we're talking about here.
Torie Wiksell: 8:19
So another thing narcissistic moms often do is that they lack an ability to connect or comfort their child. And their ability to connect and comfort their child is really limited and oftentimes is more about continuing this appearance of being the perfect mom than it is to actually provide comfort to their child, and their children's emotions are often seen as a direct insult to the mom. It is something that is manipulative in the mom's perception. The mom is not able to help, model or co-regulate their kid's emotions because she doesn't have that ability to do so for herself. She's not self-aware enough to understand what it feels like to be disappointed and to enlax the emotional intelligence to help herself or other people cope with that in a healthy way. And so something that comes up for me in my childhood is I'm not sure how many of you have seen that movie oh my gosh, why is it slipping my mind? A League of their Own, my mom. Whenever I would cry as a kid and I mean like a young kid like this, definitely from the time I was like five on up, maybe earlier, but from what I can remember, any time I would cry, she would say there's no crying in baseball, which is kind of a crazy thing to say to a five year old. When they're hurt and crying it's not great. And I think that just shows you how emotionally detached and unavailable she was, that her response to me being in any level of emotional or physical pain was to try to shut it down. Okay, next is having really unrealistic expectations for their children. So if you're the best, that means she's the best, right. If she's the best, then therefore you should be the best.
Torie Wiksell: 10:28
There's a lot of story time going on on my end today, but I'm going to tell you another little tidbit story. When my sister and I were growing up, we were both in. When my sister and I were growing up, we were both in. They used to call it GATE back in the day. I don't know what they call it now, but GATE stood for Gifted and Talented Education. I don't really know what they offered us as part of that. It's not like we were in a separate class or anything, but essentially it's something that you tested into and that was something really positive for my mom and she really liked the fact that we were both engaged One thing that she did not like is that as kids I would you know, as a young child in elementary school, I wouldn't be necessarily thinking about projects that I had to do, or homework, or bigger book reports or art projects or things like that I, like many kids out there, would sometimes have a moment where the night before something was due, I would panic because I would suddenly realize that it was due the next day and I had not done it, and no one in my family neither of my parents really, I guess paid attention to that type of thing.
Torie Wiksell: 11:40
So I would become really anxious and upset and realize that I had to go to school the next day and I didn't have this project. And what would happen is, instead of my parents saying it's OK, like we'll talk to your teacher, moving forward, this is how we can kind of keep track of these things a bit better, instead of coaching me through how to effectively handle the situation, what would happen is my dad would kind of just like shrug and say okay, and then my mom would stay up all night and do the best presentation ever in a way that looked like I did it, and so I cannot even tell you the amount of projects that I had as a young kid that I didn't do Science projects. I never thought of the idea from Book reports. There's so many things. And the reason being she would get mad at me. I mean mad Like she was not like pleased doing this. This was like I was going to be punished for this flaw, this failure of mine, for a long time. And so buckle up, bunny, because it's going to be a rough couple of days here. Funny, because it's going to be a rough couple of days here. She did it because it would completely destroy her image of being the perfect mom with the smartest kids if I didn't have the best projects done on time all the time.
Torie Wiksell: 13:14
That is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about narcissistic moms. That's not a normal response, it's just not so moving on, if you could relate to that, I'm so sorry. That's really not a pleasant way to grow up as a child. Let's see what's next. I'm looking at a little outline that I wrote up before we started, because I tend to ramble and I'm trying to stay more on topic. But I'm sorry, I'm just a rambler, what can I say?
Torie Wiksell: 13:44
So another really common trait of perfect moms who are actually narcissistic mothers is that they love to play the you. I have done everything in my life to give you the life that you have. I have sacrificed, I have given you everything. This is something that is so common with narcissistic moms. And the reality is like you're the one that decided to become a parent. That is your job to sacrifice for your child. It's my job as a parent to sacrifice for my child. She doesn't owe me anything, and the decisions that I make are ones that I'm responsible for. She doesn't owe me for me making those decisions, but narcissistic moms love to use that and throw that back in your face, and they love, love, love to be seen as this martyr who has done so much and sacrificed so much for their children, and they use that oftentimes as a way to try to guilt trip you. I've done this for you. It's the least you can do for me. Okay, I'm going to talk about two more and then we'll wrap this episode up.
Torie Wiksell: 15:09
So the next one is that narcissistic moms are often very unhappy with their children being independent. They want a certain level of dependence on them, and in a very unique way. So it's not so much that this narcissistic mom wants their child to be dependent on them so that they can take care of them. It's that they want them to share the same thoughts, feelings and beliefs that the mom has. They do not want them to have independent thoughts, beliefs or values that conflict in any way, shape or form from what the narcissistic mom thinks, believes and values. They don't need their child to have any sort of opinion that differs from them, and so they really discourage and often penalize or punish independence.
Torie Wiksell: 16:09
Going back, I told you, today is story time with my own mom, but hopefully me sharing some of these little tidbits helps you. You know, recognize that if you experience this too, you are certainly not alone, and I know I laugh often through this podcast over not funny things. I do that in my life too. That's a coping skill that I've developed throughout the years and it is also reflective of me just having been able to put some emotional distance between myself and a lot of these things Like, yes, they are horrible, they're sad, they're traumatic and awful, and I've talked a lot about them in my own personal therapy. I've talked a lot about them with people I trust, my friends, my husband. I think sometimes just being able to talk more openly about these things, once we've had the opportunity to process them, can be really helpful. So I hope that you do find it helpful me sharing some of these little nuggets from my own life.
Torie Wiksell: 17:09
So going back to narcissistic moms not wanting their children to have views that are independent of their own, my mom used to love to say whenever I would have my own thoughts and opinions that differ from hers If I say, go right, you'll go left, tori, whatever I say, you'll do the opposite. And it was like no, not really. Just, you know, sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree, but that is a perfect representation of that filter in which she viewed me. So the last one I'm going to talk about is when narcissistic moms perfect moms publicly praise and fawn over their children, but behind closed doors are super critical and harsh to their kids. So this is really really common. Behind closed doors, things look very different than they do publicly.
Torie Wiksell: 18:09
This was something that I experienced throughout my life. One thing my mom would love to do is she would always show up to any of my activities or performances. She was really involved in them and oftentimes she would get very angry with me about what I don't know, but this happened a lot where she would get really, really frustrated. She would get really, really angry with me and something that I did on the way really upset her. And, mind you, growing up I was an honor student. I got good grades for the most part. I almost failed AP calculus but it's AP calculus and that's a different story for a different day. But I wasn't getting in trouble.
Torie Wiksell: 18:57
So to say, I was overall, a pretty easy kid and it wasn't about me, it was about her. And so she had this great ability. From the time she was my Girl Scout leader growing up to the time she would show up at the football games which I was cheering at in high school. She would forward facing, be this loving, supportive person as soon as we would get in the car after Girl Scouts, she would lose it At the football games. She would pull me aside to a place where no one could see or hear us and scream at me and then leave and I was supposed to go back and continue cheering. These are not normal behaviors. These are not things she ever apologized for. These are not things that I believe that she felt badly for at all. I think she felt extremely entitled to express her frustration towards me in this way, and I think that she had zero ability to care about how traumatic that experience or those experiences were for me.
Torie Wiksell: 20:09
So you know, now that a story time for today has completed, please let me know your thoughts on this episode. Let me know if you enjoy hearing little tidbits about my own personal journey or if you'd like me to keep it a little more textbook. I am happy to receive the feedback any which way, but essentially, what I want you to know is that you are not crazy that growing up in relationships like these are so layered and so complicated and people that don't grow up like this don't understand, they don't get it, because in what world would someone that didn't grow up in a dynamic like this think that these things were happening? It's just so bizarre, it's so strange and it's so perplexing to understand this dynamic unless you've lived it.
Torie Wiksell: 21:05
And if you've lived it, then I'm sure that you, unfortunately, can relate to a lot of what I've experienced throughout my life, and it's probably, you know, similar in a lot of respects to what you've experienced as well. That's why I'm so grateful to have this podcast. I'm so grateful to all of you who write in and share your thoughts and stories with me. I just think it's been such a positive influence on my own life, my own healing journey, and I'm so happy to hear that it's been such a positive influence on so many of your lives as well. So please, please, please, keep those DMs on Instagram coming, keep the emails coming and, on that note, I'll see you soon.
